Curse

Razorwood · Mar 01, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Surely you'd want rebirth if there was something nasty like an Aatxe about then? Granted you'd have 0 energy but you'd be fairly safe, providing the resser wasn't in danger.

But I feel we could talk about what ifs all day long, I just feel saying nothing beats GoS + Res Chant is far to board a statement since it's not always the best, it maybe the best in most cases but there will be times when another res will be more suitable.

Another example would be in Urgoz would GoS + Res Chant get the person off the bridge that went up there to open the gate?

Neriandal Freit · Mar 01, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

What is with these personal quotes and debates against Celes? Besides my self, Celest and few others, we're likely the most non-mod posters here who know most about the Elementalist and how to play them effectively. All this silly debate against and towards Celest is uncalled for. I agree with her in the way of not taking a Ressurection, it allows the elementalist to be a better elementalist.

But, I admit, I often will take one with a real group simply because I do not want to here the "WTF DIDNT YOU TAKE A RES! YOU NUB", when in reality my character is 2 years old in 2 months and also has 3.5 M experience as a PvE player.

Back to the topic how ever.

I find that being a E/R while playing Air is fun with Serpent Quickness. You really don't need anything into Wilderness, just a few minor points into it to give you a bit of a boost. Even if you don't put anything into it, while the duration of SQ lasts, your firing off your already fast Air Spells onto your enemy and giving your Attunements or other enchanments a quicker boost as well.

I am a fan of Lightning Hammer as it is a guaranteed hit unlike Orb (which also, you can not use if your behind a wall while you may with Hammer) but, of course you need good energy management to keep Hammer in the game. Even if you don't have both Attunements in your bar, at the very least keep Air Attunement with you. Might not give you as much return in the long run, but your are being returned with some energy.

Edit: As for weapons, I enjoy having the 20/20 across the board (As you should have Energy and Air maxed mostly as it is) to give you the even faster recharge and casting of your Lightning Orb, Hammer, Strikes or Charges (And whatever else you feel is shocking..get it!?..ok fine) on your opponent. It's rather fun seeing your Orb recharging faster with SQ and the 20's stacked on it, very fun indeed

Edit Edit: And remember! When encountering other Aeromancers (which, unfortunately, is few far and in between) in the game, both from other players and the PvE-World, that HEALTH is better then +10 armor. If you can't figure out why, you really need to study the Air-Line first before attempting to play, as your penetrating your opponents armor. So, health for you while facing another Aeromancer is far superior then +10armor (even if your wearing Aeromancer Related armor)

Sophitia Leafblade · Mar 01, 2007, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neriandal Freit

What is with these personal quotes and debates against Celes? Besides my self, Celest and few others, we're likely the most non-mod posters here who know most about the Elementalist and how to play them effectively. All this silly debate against and towards Celest is uncalled for. I agree with her in the way of not taking a Ressurection, it allows the elementalist to be a better elementalist.

But, I admit, I often will take one with a real group simply because I do not want to here the "WTF DIDNT YOU TAKE A RES! YOU NUB", when in reality my character is 2 years old in 2 months and also has 3.5 M experience as a PvE player.

QFT

Ive Seen Celest in action she knows how to Handle Eles and shes got the right idea about them.

Anyways my usual kind of Air build is:

[skill]Invoke Lightning[/skill][skill]Lightning Orb[/skill][skill]Enervating Charge[/skill][skill]Lightning Strike[/skill][skill]Glyph of Restoration[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Air Attunement[/skill][skill]Rebirth[/skill]

Which allows me to Res in team wipe-outs and do considerable damage and maintain energy quite effectively.

ss1986v2 · Mar 01, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neriandal Freit

What is with these personal quotes and debates against Celes? Besides my self, Celest and few others, we're likely the most non-mod posters here who know most about the Elementalist and how to play them effectively. All this silly debate against and towards Celest is uncalled for. I agree with her in the way of not taking a Ressurection, it allows the elementalist to be a better elementalist.

ill debate anyone about ingame strategy, regardless of post count. thats what this is, an open forum for the free exchange of ideas and opinions. its not a personal attack, its a disagreement on ingame strategy, which i felt like would be a good topic to discuss.

ok, im sure you know how to play celest. no one is doubting that. but its pve remember. you can run an empty bar with henches and breeze through it. that doesnt mean you should. im sure how you play and what you run works great, im debating whether you are getting the maximum out of your char, at least dps wise.

if your energy isnt dropping below 50% with just non elite e-management, then you arent getting the most out of your dmg. again, ill go to a basic hammer/orb/strike chain. over the 7.25 secs of the combo, you expell 45 energy. natural regen will restore about 10 energy, while air attune with give back +8, +6, and +2 energy. so after the first chain, we are at a net lose of 19 energy. assuming you have around 80 energy, you will be below 50% energy as soon as you start your third chain. assuming you drop in GoLE on the second chain, you wont drop below 50% energy until you start your fourth chain. this will drop even faster if you are dropping any other skills into your chain (invoke, blinding flash, ect).

with dual attune, you gain +20, +13, +4 energy, which works out to a net gain of 2 energy every chain. this allows you to throw in those utility skills without having to worry about energy (hp spam for example), because your dmg chain doesnt cost any energy. its not a matter of just keeping your energy up, but maximizing your dmg output and utility while keeping your energy up. if you are wanding at all, you are wasting time and potential dmg. as far as pve is concerned, more dmg > less dmg and more energy > less energy.

as for the rez, thats just a difference in opinion. i come from the belief that you bring a rez, and plan to never use it. no one should die, but if something goes horribly wrong, you need to get them up ASAP (they should be back up in 3 seconds or less), which is why i run GoS+chant or a rez sig always. also, i dont want my monks rezzing during combat. if things are hectic enough to drop a player with two monks healing/protecting, i think its even more likely for another to drop with just one monk doing his job, because the other one is busy rezzing.

Razorwood · Mar 01, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

ok, im sure you know how to play celest. no one is doubting that. but its pve remember. you can run an empty bar with henches and breeze through it. that doesnt mean you should. im sure how you play and what you run works great, im debating whether you are getting the maximum out of your char, at least dps wise.

with dual attune, you gain +20, +13, +4 energy, which works out to a net gain of 2 energy every chain. this allows you to throw in those utility skills without having to worry about energy (hp spam for example),

Haven't you contradicted yourself there?

Surely if he puts hp on his skill bar he is no longer getting the maximum dps anymore? Since he'd have to drop two skills according to what you've said. One to replace with ele attunement and one for HP. Not to mention he'd also loose his elite attack skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

as for the rez, thats just a difference in opinion. i come from the belief that you bring a rez, and plan to never use it. no one should die, but if something goes horribly wrong, you need to get them up ASAP (they should be back up in 3 seconds or less), which is why i run GoS+chant or a rez sig always.

But once again you can only get one person up quickly, you personally then have to wait 45 seconds before you can res anyone else. Personally i'd rather have a weapon set that HCT of healing and i'd take my chances with that.

Cebe · Mar 01, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Mmhmm, reason I'm not keen on Elemental Attunement as an energy storage elite is due to it's fragility. With Air Attunement and GoLE, if Air Attunement gets stripped I can use GoLE to get off 2 fairly high energy skills without killing my energy too much while Air Attunement recharges. I've tried playing around with the likes of Ether Prism...that just doesn't do it for me.

I understand what you mean about using Dual Attunements will mean more DPS but, like you say, at the end of the day PvE is a breeze and, I play for fun. My idea of fun isn't keeping dual attunements on continually which, more often than not, will just get stripped. I used to use Dual Attunements for everything until I realised there was more to life than DPS in PvE. I don't PvP much...maybe this is where most of the disagreements are coming from.

I'll not say anything more about the res issue...I dare say in another fortnight or so when someone else wants help with an ele build and someone instantly suggests the use of one or more certain monk skills I'll be there to disagree.

Also, I don't care about how many posts I've made here either...just like because someone has played the game from the start doesn't mean they are a "Guild Wars God".

Sophitia Leafblade · Mar 01, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

im debating whether you are getting the maximum out of your char, at least dps wise.

Dont forget however that the thing with gw is that you dont always have to have a good dps in order to be most effective. Eg. a Blackout Mesmer wont have much dps but can be highly effective. The other thing to remember isnt just builds its how u use them ie your play style, eg. using the right skills on the right targets, or the right order or even positioning yourself in the right place. Nearly any build can be effective if you use it wisely. So just because 1 particular build is very popular doesnt mean its the most effective build for everyone. When one person continuously tell everyone to use a said build and tells them every other build isnt as good its non productive and doesn't help anyone.

ss1986v2 · Mar 01, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razorwood

Haven't you contradicted yourself there?

Surely if he puts hp on his skill bar he is no longer getting the maximum dps anymore? Since he'd have to drop two skills according to what you've said. One to replace with ele attunement and one for HP. Not to mention he'd also loose his elite attack skill.

dps, damage per seconds, can potentially be equal whether im using 1 skill or 5 skills. its damage over a sec period of time. when you add a new skill into your chain, you add more casting time and another aftercast. this increases the amount of time used in the chain, balancing the added dmg from the new skill.

for example, at 16 air on a 60 armor target, hammer, invoke, and orb hit for 140 dmg while strike does 70. with a time of 7.25 seconds, the hammer/orb/strike chain comes to 350 total dmg, or 48.3 dmg per second. with invoke added in every other chain because of its recharge, it comes to 840 dmg (not counting the potential AoE of invoke) over 17.25 seconds which comes to 48.7 dmg per second, an increase of 0.4 dmg. the potential AoE and a lucky HRT will really help the chain.

now we factor in energy upkeep. with air attune and GoLE, you can actually keep up the hammer/orb/strike/invoke chain going for about two full chains (invoke/hammer/orb/strike/hammer/orb/strike/and repeat) before energy gets tight, which is actually really good. lots of mobs should be dead by then. so when you compare the two chains the invoke chain offers a potential higher dps at the cost of a short usage time. while the dual attune chain offers similar dps with no energy cost, and an extra slot for utility (which in this case actually goes to GoS+chant).

and this is all im saying; the dual attune options lets you keep up an indefinite dps chain, while the invoke, which has a higher potential dps, has a limited usage time, plus the downside of having to recharge your full energy reserve between battles. im not saying that the invoke chain is bad, i really like it and do use it when i know the AoE will pay off big. its the assertion that you would never drop below 50% energy is the part im contesting. if you arent dropping below 50% energy, then you arent casting the skills on recharge, so you are reducing your dps. the invoke chain on its own is great, im not bashing it.

as for hp, im not advocating dropping hp into your chain. its their for added support, to be used only in situation of heavy pressure. the fact that my energy reserve allows me to spam it when needed doesnt mean i should just keep recasting it every time it comes back. that would gimp your dps, so dont do it. keep it in reserve for when the team really needs it. yes, any use will drop your dpm, damage per minute, but your chain maintains its dps. note that blinding flash ill also lower your dps, so the two arent that different. one heals dmg, and other negates it.

as for fragility, i think any ele build that relies on any attunes is rather fragile. dual attune is just as dead as a single attune build if they are shattered, except for the the two skills from GoLE, as long as its recharged when you get shattered. if GoLE is also recharging, the invoke chain is just as dead. plus invoke will add exhaustion to deal with, though you wouldnt cast it without the enchant.

again, im not bashing you celest, and i hope i havnt rubbed you the wrong way. i just enjoy having debates with the smarter members on this board.

*edit*
didnt read your post sophitia before writing this, so ill comment here. yes i know there is more than dps to the game. but we are talking about an air ele right? its not a water ele, or a blackout mesmer, or any other build. an air ele is built around spiking and pumping out dps. and dual attune is not good because its popular, its popular because its good. and again, i like the invoke chain. im not bashing it. im just defending the power of dual attune in comparison.

bhavv · Mar 01, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Ok, I think there has just been a huge clash here between PVP and PVE players. As for PVE, especially when using heroes/hench, an elementalist really has no single need for a res sig at all, and I agree with Celestial beaver. Also, Invoke lightning ran on yourself Zhed and Sosuke is pure ownage, far more damaging then searingflames.

In PVP, res sig is 110% crucial, Invoke lightning works terribly well in HA with lightning hammer, but in RA/TA its completely useless.

You cannot have a single bar, no matter what profession or attribute that can handle everything.

edit - Oh, except for the almighty mending wammo.

Ensign · Mar 01, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

How is a 45 second recharge-res a worthwhile addition to a skillbar?

First you have to learn why ressig is good.

Once you understand why ressig is good, it is obvious why a reusable ressig on a 45 second recharge is good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Personal judgement ftw.

Not personal judgement, strategic judgement. The *last* person on a team that should be ressing when a team is getting beat up enough to be taking deaths is the Monk. Someone just died, but your energy and time is so free that you can stop playing defense for several seconds to res? Again, this is something that I consider to be *obvious*.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I don't wait until I'm the last one alive. What the hell gave you that idea?

You all but said you did in this very thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

But as I have said before...I don't take a res, in particular resurrection signet, when I play ele because if the ele is the last one alive...

---

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razorwood

What about Lively Was Naomei?

Ok everyone, die in a pile! LIVELY COMING IN!

Lively was kinda cute in Hall battles back in the day, when you knew that Frozen Soil was going to be coming down fairly often. Even though it's such a weak res on its own, it had some value from its interaction with Frozen. Certainly not a great hardres, but one that was ok given the circumstances.

Touch range kills Renew Life utterly, the half range on Resurrection Chant is pretty harsh as is and touch is brutal. I tried it for like two games before deciding it was unplayable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razorwood

Surely you'd want rebirth if there was something nasty like an Aatxe about then?

Rebirth is the best non-combat res in Guild Wars. In PvE, you should stash a copy or two on players unlikely to die in a wipe if wiping is a very real possibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

ill debate anyone about ingame strategy, regardless of post count. thats what this is, an open forum for the free exchange of ideas and opinions. its not a personal attack, its a disagreement on ingame strategy, which i felt like would be a good topic to discuss.

Absolutely. Truth always supercedes credentials, no matter how robust or flimsy they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

if your energy isnt dropping below 50% with just non elite e-management, then you arent getting the most out of your dmg.

There are two sides to this.

First, is when fighting a typical trash mob, clean pull or engagement, nothing special going on. You don't need any sort of fancy emanagement here. The mob is going to be broken in ~15 seconds with a decent enough group, you'll be mopping up for another 10-15, and moving on to the next group. Blue Bars Go Up with an Attunement is fine in this sort of situation, even with Lightning Hammer. You'll pump your energy down to half or so breaking the group, and when mopping up you stop casting expensive spells, just wanding and tossing Strikes to speed up the killing of stragglers, regenning energy the whole time, and you'll be near-full by the time you get to the next mob more than likely. Against clean trash, you really do have to try to run out of energy.

The other side, is that no one should be building to take out trash as effectively as possible. If you can't mop up the trash easily your team has serious problems and should reconcider what you're doing. What you should be building for are the nastier encounters that you'll likely run into - the bad pulls where you get two mobs, the boss mobs, etc. It's those fights where stronger emanagement, better skillbars, and better play will pull out fights that weaker teams wipe to. In these situations, you do see weaker Elementalists burn out on energy before the fight is decided - and that is a pretty significant problem.

So I believe fully that those characters perform adequately against trash mobs under minimal pressure or disruption. At the same time, I *know* they run down and fall apart under pressure or disruption, which is why I'm so quick to dismiss them as crap. Because things do not always go perfectly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

as for the rez, thats just a difference in opinion. i come from the belief that you bring a rez, and plan to never use it.

Ressing is basically a team build thing that's never really discussed by a group - they don't coordinate anything for the most part beyond 'need tanks and monks', let alone how they'll address ressing. In practice you really don't need a ressig or hardres on everyone. In my experience you want 3-4 ressigs, a good combat hardres if possible, and in areas where a wipe is likely, a couple copies of Rebirth on people who are the least likely to take deaths in a wipe. If you're playing on a herohench team, stashing 5 ressigs on the herohenchies is more than enough, so go ahead and take eight skills yourself - you'll certainly get better use out of that last slot than a henchie would. On the flip side, when playing with a bunch of players you do need to decide where you fit in the res equation, and act appropriately. Usually that means bringing a ressig, a good hardres if you can manage it, or stashing a Rebirth just in case in PvE. I'm not going to say that there aren't bars where the 7th and 8th skills are absolutely critical, but they're by far an exception rather than the rule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razorwood

Haven't you contradicted yourself there?

Surely if he puts hp on his skill bar he is no longer getting the maximum dps anymore?

You don't need to use every single skill on your bar to maximize damage, you just need enough to consume all of your time and/or energy. If Flare was the best DPS skill in the game you could pump all of your energy and time into Flare, and the other skills on your bar wouldn't impact your DPS at all. In practice, you get 90+% of theoretical maximum DPS from using less than half of your skill slots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I'll not say anything more about the res issue...I dare say in another fortnight or so when someone else wants help with an ele build and someone instantly suggests the use of one or more certain monk skills I'll be there to disagree.

Of course, we will continue to point out that your reasons for disagreeing are not based upon those skills being weak on those bars, or them taking the place of vital skills that you need to do your job, but because you have preconcieved notions about what a character should and shouldn't do and argue in the face of effectiveness to defend those notions.

To put it simply: you're perhaps an experienced and helpful poster - and it's very important, to me, to the people who want this forum to remain a useful resource, that things like flexibility, durability, and power continue to be the core ideals of build discussion and optimization. Sure, you might find it more fun to play weaker, less flexible, less durable characters, and that's fine. But this forum stops being useful when the recommendations being made to people looking for build advice start to point people in that direction instead of, you know, helping them make their builds better.

Peace,
-CxE

Hyprodimus Prime · Mar 02, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Personal judgement ftw.

Well im just starting to get into higher end pvp and what im realizing is that people have a much more distinct role. There are very few builds that will "fill in the blanks" A few might be a MoR Resmer with hex remove and domination or a Hybrid runner/healer either LoD monk or HP ele.

Other than that, assasins spike, monks heal, mesmers hex-interrupt, rits lay spirits you get the picture. Its not only PvP that this should be used, but it makes PvE more efficient/successful too. Monks should not be wasting energy and 6 seconds ressing because that compromises their ability to heal and protect. if you are still dying it could just be your team build. I know some people say skill is more important, but when you're facing shiro in the gates of madness you better bring wildblow and SV....

Im not saying that as an ele you fill your bar with damage skills, theres only so much you can spam before the last ones you fired off recharge. In those extra slots you put utility and E-manage. That goes for every profession with few exceptions. If you are monking you dont take 8 Healing skills....maybe 4, 1 signet, 2 enchants and a condition remove or something.

So you do have to know when to stop. But putting res on a monk means they arent healing, if they arent healing, you blame them for your death. As Ensign said, res sigs are to get people back up ASAP. Putting them on monks will cause more deaths. Each person in important in a team, each one has a job. If they are dead they cant do that job and then others may get over whelmed eventually leading to party wipe. Unless the monk expects that (in which they bring rebirth) then they need every slot they can get. And I know monks....they dont join if they see 4x W/Mo in your party. They are smart enough to choose a good party or form their own ballenced ones. Sometimes they abuse that power, but im sure you understand what I mean.

Sophitia Leafblade · Mar 02, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

Didnt read your post sophitia before writing this, so ill comment here. yes i know there is more than dps to the game. but we are talking about an air ele right? its not a water ele, or a blackout mesmer, or any other build. an air ele is built around spiking and pumping out dps. and dual attune is not good because its popular, its popular because its good. and again, i like the invoke chain. im not bashing it. im just defending the power of dual attune in comparison.

I dont disagree a good dps is important for a Air ele but im just pointing out dropping some skills to increase ur dps to keep u and allies alive (like using enervating charge to weaken enemys) is generally more effective. A dead Ele has no dps

keep that in mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

First you have to learn why ressig is good.

Once you understand why ressig is good, it is obvious why a reusable ressig on a 45 second recharge is good.

Well to be fair its not a reusable ressig, it takes time to use the glyph. Rebirth is must more handy to team wipe-outs as are AoE res's. And ones like Vengeance are highly useful also even if they are temporary. 45 seconds recharge on a res is not good yes u can res 1 person fast but more often than not more than 1 person dies when things get awkward and so its usefulness is negated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Not personal judgement, strategic judgement. The *last* person on a team that should be ressing when a team is getting beat up enough to be taking deaths is the Monk. Someone just died, but your energy and time is so free that you can stop playing defense for several seconds to res? Again, this is something that I consider to be *obvious*.

When the rest of the team has no res and you dont have the firepower to kill the enemys without ressing say the Ele then its very important for the monks to res mid battle. The Sacrificing of a Tank in order in order to get a more useful team member up and going is a good sacrifice if thats what it takes to survive the battle. When there are 2 or more monks in the party one can res while the other just keeps the other alive until the 2nd monk returns to healing/protecting (although generally is better if the protector res's mid battle rather than the healer)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Touch range kills Renew Life utterly, the half range on Resurrection Chant is pretty harsh as is and touch is brutal. I tried it for like two games before deciding it was unplayable.

Some short range skills such as Restore life are far the best res's (except when enemys are camped on the corpses). They work well in emergency mid battle ressings as well as to get a party back together after a near wipeout.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Ressing is basically a team build thing that's never really discussed by a group - they don't coordinate anything for the most part beyond 'need tanks and monks', let alone how they'll address ressing.

Personally i 75% of the time check to see if people i dont know have some sort of res in there skill bar especially in harder missions/quests/areas. The only times i dont ask are if i know that person and i know that they will or will not have a res. And judging from some partys ive been in im not the only one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

To put it simply: you're perhaps an experienced and helpful poster - and it's very important, to me, to the people who want this forum to remain a useful resource, that things like flexibility, durability, and power continue to be the core ideals of build discussion and optimization. Sure, you might find it more fun to play weaker, less flexible, less durable characters, and that's fine. But this forum stops being useful when the recommendations being made to people looking for build advice start to point people in that direction instead of, you know, helping them make their builds better.

Ok thats harsh and uncalled for, everyone should be allowed to point out there style and builds. What Celest was pointing out is how some people tell everyone they MUST use this build -build x or part build x because its best, in gw there is no Best skills its all down to play style. You use the glyph because it suits your play style but it doesn't suit everybody's. Continuously forcing ur views onto others isnt much help either. Yes keep suggesting your style and builds but dont go destroying other peoples builds that may or may not be effective to others because because its not as "Supreme" as ur build that everyone should follow. Im far from an expert at gw but I know handing someone a build doesn’t mean as soon as they equip it they will be as ‘skilled’ as u in using it. For example some Eles like to stay back and nuke/spike, some Eles like me like to go short range AoE, give a person a chance to try them both and see which uses to better effect. Just because there play style isn’t the same as ur doesn’t mean there build is any weaker, Less flexible or less durable.

Katari · Mar 02, 2007, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

I dont disagree a good dps is important for a Air ele but im just pointing out dropping some skills to increase ur dps to keep u and allies alive (like using enervating charge to weaken enemys) is generally more effective. A dead Ele has no dps

keep that in mind.

Then don't play with a deathwhish? Simple kiting alone can make a caster outlive almost every pug. Just don't play with a deathwhish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Well to be fair its not a reusable ressig, it takes time to use the glyph. Rebirth is must more handy to team wipe-outs as are AoE res's. And ones like Vengeance are highly useful also even if they are temporary. 45 seconds recharge on a res is not good yes u can res 1 person fast but more often than not more than 1 person dies when things get awkward and so its usefulness is negated.

GoS+Reschant is a midcomat res that casts faster than any other resurect in the game. So no, it isn't exactly a reusable ressig, it's a faster one. The idea is that if one person drops, you can get him'her back up before the team starts to break as a result of having even less people, hopefully stalling or preventing a whipe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

When the rest of the team has no res and you dont have the firepower to kill the enemys without ressing say the Ele then its very important for the monks to res mid battle. The Sacrificing of a Tank in order in order to get a more useful team member up and going is a good sacrifice if thats what it takes to survive the battle. When there are 2 or more monks in the party one can res while the other just keeps the other alive until the 2nd monk returns to healing/protecting (although generally is better if the protector res's mid battle rather than the healer)

If the monks are ressing the ele, who does nobody else have a res, and why did the ele die if the monks can have the time to res? Why have three monks, and why is your warrior not killing stuff? You seem to place the damage output of that warrior signifigantly below that of the ele for some reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Some short range skills such as Restore life are far the best res's (except when enemys are camped on the corpses). They work well in emergency mid battle ressings as well as to get a party back together after a near wipeout.

Yes they are: in theory. But also not by much, and it isn't worth the touch cast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Ok thats harsh and uncalled for, everyone should be allowed to point out there style and builds. What Celest was pointing out is how some people tell everyone they MUST use this build -build x or part build x because its best, in gw there is no Best skills its all down to play style. You use the glyph because it suits your play style but it doesn't suit everybody's. Continuously forcing ur views onto others isnt much help either. Yes keep suggesting your style and builds but dont go destroying other peoples builds that may or may not be effective to others because because its not as "Supreme" as ur build that everyone should follow. Im far from an expert at gw but I know handing someone a build doesn’t mean as soon as they equip it they will be as ‘skilled’ as u in using it. For example some Eles like to stay back and nuke/spike, some Eles like me like to go short range AoE, give a person a chance to try them both and see which uses to better effect. Just because there play style isn’t the same as ur doesn’t mean there build is any weaker, Less flexible or less durable.

Harsh, but true. Maybe if perfect balance existed, and all skills were equal, that could be the case, but it isn't. Some skills are better than others. There are times when removing one or two damager skills won't lower your DPS, and times when doing so to add in a resurrect is very worth it, and not to do so is just a very bad idea. As it stands, Phoenix is inferior to fireball, and it really isn't a good idea to throw Double Dragon and PBAoE and charge at mobs. You could claim that that's OK if you have that play-style, but in reality it just sucks.

ss1986v2 · Mar 02, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

I dont disagree a good dps is important for a Air ele but im just pointing out dropping some skills to increase ur dps to keep u and allies alive (like using enervating charge to weaken enemys) is generally more effective. A dead Ele has no dps

keep that in mind.

im not dropping skills to increase my dps. im minimizing the number of skill slots needed to achieve a high dps, and then using those extra slots to bring utility to help keep the team alive. 2 slots for attunes, 3 for the attacks leaves 3 slots open for utility. i just chose different forms of utility then you would (GoS+chant, blinding flash or heal party).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Well to be fair its not a reusable ressig, it takes time to use the glyph. Rebirth is must more handy to team wipe-outs as are AoE res's. And ones like Vengeance are highly useful also even if they are temporary. 45 seconds recharge on a res is not good yes u can res 1 person fast but more often than not more than 1 person dies when things get awkward and so its usefulness is negated.

well, it is a reusable rez sig. rez sig has a 3 second cast, and GoS+chant takes less time than that. reduced amount of time to bring them up, and it does recharge. thats sounds like reusable to me. and yes, rebirth is great for party wipes, but the goal is to never party wipe. you rez sig or GoS+chant the second one person dies, never letting the party wipe. if people are dropping so fast that you need to rez again immediatly after doing GoS+chant, your group should fall back, regroup, and then rebirth anyone that got left behind. but you shouldnt plan for the wipe, you should plan to never let it happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

When the rest of the team has no res and you dont have the firepower to kill the enemys without ressing say the Ele then its very important for the monks to res mid battle. The Sacrificing of a Tank in order in order to get a more useful team member up and going is a good sacrifice if thats what it takes to survive the battle. When there are 2 or more monks in the party one can res while the other just keeps the other alive until the 2nd monk returns to healing/protecting (although generally is better if the protector res's mid battle rather than the healer)

yes, in this instance, the monk is forced to rez. im talking about when every other member of the team has a rez, why should the monk be the one rezing? thats what doesnt make sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Some short range skills such as Restore life are far the best res's (except when enemys are camped on the corpses). They work well in emergency mid battle ressings as well as to get a party back together after a near wipeout.

i like restore life (good after battle rez, or a backline rez), but odds are that if a team member dropped, hes probably got at least a few enemies camped around his corpse (something had to kill him). sending the monk into the front lines to rez when the rest of the team can rez just doesnt make sense to me. i agree that if no one else has a rez the monk might have to act, but that should never happen when everyone (or at least a few) have a rez.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Personally i 75% of the time check to see if people i dont know have some sort of res in there skill bar especially in harder missions/quests/areas. The only times i dont ask are if i know that person and i know that they will or will not have a res. And judging from some partys ive been in im not the only one.

yeah i always look to see what rez people bring. but most pugs are more concerned with builds than with which rez each person uses (unless they expect a particular rez, like rebirth in ToPK).

Sophitia Leafblade · Mar 02, 2007, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

Then don't play with a deathwhish? Simple kiting alone can make a caster outlive almost every pug. Just don't play with a deathwhish.

Kiting wont save you from spell casters, traps or cripple etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

GoS+Reschant is a midcomat res that casts faster than any other resurect in the game. So no, it isn't exactly a reusable ressig, it's a faster one. The idea is that if one person drops, you can get him'her back up before the team starts to break as a result of having even less people, hopefully stalling or preventing a whipe.

That only works if its not recharging, if it is then it takes longer than it would if you just have a res signet or another res. Also Speed of Res isnt always the best option, a speed res can res someone and leave them totally ineffective due to lack of energy while a slower more useful res can make them back into form almost as soon as they are back up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

If the monks are ressing the ele, who does nobody else have a res, and why did the ele die if the monks can have the time to res? Why have three monks, and why is your warrior not killing stuff? You seem to place the damage output of that warrior signifigantly below that of the ele for some reason.

Well i was just using that for an example so continuing that example: The ele is dead because it got spiked with the opening Salvo from all the enemies. Why have 3 monks, well perhaps because 1 or more of them are smiting monks. Why is you Warrior not killing stuff well that cause hes not playing very well cause he used a cookie cutter straight from the forums

. And Yes i do consider the average Ele more damaging that ur average warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

Harsh, but true. Maybe if perfect balance existed, and all skills were equal, that could be the case, but it isn't. Some skills are better than others. There are times when removing one or two damager skills won't lower your DPS, and times when doing so to add in a resurrect is very worth it, and not to do so is just a very bad idea. As it stands, Phoenix is inferior to fireball, and it really isn't a good idea to throw Double Dragon and PBAoE and charge at mobs. You could claim that that's OK if you have that play-style, but in reality it just sucks.

Nope its quite untrue. Yes there are some weaker skills that could do with a buff to equal them to newer skills but in general all the skills are moderately balanced and there certainly isn't any Perfect skills that you should be without. I Actually like using Phoenix and Fireball. Phoenix for when they get into close range and Fireball for at a longer distance works especially well in Magumma Jungle.

Believe it or not ive been in some PUGs with some very strange builds including a Warrior with only Bane signet and Heal signet and yet we still managed to do DragonsLair mission and bonus without any problems of any kind. That because the way he used those skills eg. not using Healsig while under heavy attack etc. etc. If two identical Teams fight, the one who knows how to work together and use there skills properly will win everytime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miha The Warrior

ROooooooooooooooooooooooooooFL
POOR guy is asking for a lil advice on his build and u guys r fightning who is the biggest moron.

Oh u want some too do ya!!! huh huh!!

just kidding

Dr Strangelove · Mar 02, 2007, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Hooray! I never get tired of the flamewars in the elementalist threads (no pun intended).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Kiting wont save you from spell casters, traps or cripple etc.

Kiting traps = not stepping in them. kiting spellcasters = dodging projectiles, staying out of range, and not setting yourself up to be focus fired.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

That only works if its not recharging, if it is then it takes longer than it would if you just have a res signet or another res. Also Speed of Res isnt always the best option, a speed res can res someone and leave them totally ineffective due to lack of energy while a slower more useful res can make them back into form almost as soon as they are back up.

Totally ineffective? It's an insta rez signet, bringing them back with nearly full life and a nice chunk of energy. I'd rather spend 2 seconds rezzing an almost perfect character than spend 6 seconds + time to run over and touch somone for a perfect one. I think that most of the time a rez sig is good enough in PvE, considering the amount of morale boosts available, but you can hardly discount the effectiveness of GoS + res chant if you need a hard rez.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Why is you Warrior not killing stuff well that cause he *snip* fails

There, fixed that for you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

And Yes i do consider the average Ele more damaging that ur average warrior.

An ele does more damage if the mobs are nice enough to bunch up in your AoE and don't have much armor. Warriors can do more DPS without having to care about bunching enemies or armor. Of course, to be fair, your "average" warrior in PuGs is a dolt with 5 stances, power attack, healing breeze and mending on his bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

Harsh, but true. Maybe if perfect balance existed, and all skills were equal, that could be the case, but it isn't. Some skills are better than others.

QFT. There are just some skills that suck. Phoenix, with its lower ranged damage, high energy cost, and tiny AoE is a crappy spell. Inferno, when compared to pretty much anything, is crap. Some things just shouldn't be used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Believe it or not ive been in some PUGs with some very strange builds including a Warrior with only Bane signet and Heal signet and yet we still managed to do DragonsLair mission and bonus without any problems of any kind.

Your warrior was a mouth breather, and your team would have been better off without him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

That because the way he used those skills eg. not using Healsig while under heavy attack etc. etc. If two identical Teams fight, the one who knows how to work together and use there skills properly will win everytime.

If I put power attack on my ele's bar, it wouldn't be good, even if I did use it at the right time or whatever. Working together is certainly important. However, if two teams with identical skill face each other, and one team is stuck with flare spammers and bane signet warriors, while the other gets PvP templates, who do you think will win? It strikes me as ridiculous to say that your bar is unimportant as long as you know how to use it. 75% of this game (and the reason this forum exists) is designed effecive builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Those people are wrong. There's not a hard res option in the game that can even hold a candle to Glyph of Sacrifice / Resurrection Chant.

I prefer FC mesmers for the shorter recharge, but mesmers these days are generally better suited to going /E for GoLE

Quote:

Originally Posted by everyone

But Dr Strangelove, who does need a rez on the team? And which one should I bring? Please shower me with your incredible wisdom

A couple rebirths on backline characters are a good idea, a dedicated combat hard rezzer (Ele, mesmer, and rit, in that order of priority), and rez sigs on all your frontline people. Monks should be either bringing rebirth and not using it in combat, or no rez at all.

Darkpower Alchemist · Mar 03, 2007, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Ok, your debate has been very interesting, yet let me stick my two cents into the cookie jar and make the bank abit more robust.

The res topic is simple, bring one. You have 7 more slots to use to kill your enemies with, so the res is the given. 5 ressers is ideal except in the case of a whipe, and in said stated case, who is sure the guy you think won't get whiped doesn't get whiped? Chance isn't a fair gambler, so all should bring at least a sig,imo.

With the other 7 slots, a build will normally consisit of 4 skills that are used to kill in some shape,form,or fashion. Eles may actually use all 4 slots to do damage, while warriors need maybe 3 in a solid build, or 4 in the case of buiild specific scenarios like these:

[skill=card]Executioner's Strike[/skill][skill=card]Dismember[/skill][skill=card]Agonizing Chop[/skill][skill=card]Critical Chop[/skill]

[skill=card]Lightning Strike[/skill][skill=card]Enervating Charge[/skill][skill=card]Lightning Orb[/skill][skill=card]Lightning Hammer[/skill]

Now, with that established, the last 3 slots available for use depend solely on the scenario that said player and the team are involving themselves in. These 3 slots can be either e managment, stances or even a cap sig in skill cap teams, but the result is that a build is formed around the need of the individual and the team's objectives. Utility is a word used to explain quickly what a skill isn't doing more than what it is doing.

Heal Party and Elemental Attunement are considered utility skills due to the fact that they don't increase DPS, but do add to overall effectiveness. Warrior stances do similar jobs, and so can be said for various other skills in any professions skill sets, yet utility is generalized as a skill that "doesn't kill".

With an ele, since that was the original topic, these 3 slots can be filled like this:

[skill=card]Elemental Attunement[/skill][skill=card]Aura of Restoration[/skill][skill=card]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill]

These "Utility" skills will increase the effectiveness of the elementalist, and therefore, the team in a general sense. At this point in the game's evolution, secondary professions can make a build either spectacular or never even show up in a build, due to the nature of the player in question. Derv enchantments like Mystic regeneration will surely replace AoR on a bar, but could be better with it than without it.

My point is that "Utility" and "Core" skills of anyone's build pretty much surround 5 skills, leaving the other 3 to always be quite debateable.

bungusmaximus · Mar 09, 2007, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

A couple rebirths on backline characters are a good idea, a dedicated combat hard rezzer (Ele, mesmer, and rit, in that order of priority), and rez sigs on all your frontline people. Monks should be either bringing rebirth and not using it in combat, or no rez at all.

You have the right idea imo. When teaming up with strangers its a recipe for disaster to not bring a res anyway. I cant stand crap like: LFG MISSION NEED EXP PPL!!!! and when people ping their bars there are only 2 people carrying res. Teamleader still presses 'enter mission' and doesn't even care, making me doubt if hes really that experienced.
That glyph+res chant idea could do really well in some areas. Res sigs don't recharge too fast in some of the elite areas so there it could shine and really make a difference. In any normal PvE areas with relatively short quests and lots of bosses i wouldn't even bother with it.

I don't touch air too much, except in AB, for some reason it's so much fun there, i mostly run something around this:

Air attunement
Ele attunement
Mystic regeneration
Lightning orb
Lightning hammer
Blinding flash
Enervating charge
Stoning (for spammable KD)

Dr Strangelove · Mar 09, 2007, 10:48 AM // 10:48

I think that for all mystic regen is good for, the cover enchant for a dual attunement is probably no the right place for it. Consider a 10 second period. Mystic regen will heal 18 health per second, or 180 health in 10 seconds.

A typical cycle for your build will go-

Lightning hammer 2 +.75 sec = 2.75 total time
Lightning Orb 2 + .75 = 5.5 total time
Blinding Flash .75+.75 = 7 total time
Enervating Charge 1 + .75 = 8.75 total time

In slightly less than 10 seconds (some extra time provided for moving around + retargeting) you'll have used 25 + 15+15+10= 65 energy. Aura of restoration at 10 ES heals for 3.17 times the amount of energy, or 206 health, and can quite easily go higher if you spam lightning hammer -> orb.

In addition, aura is less of a pain to recast, lasting 60ish seconds, and also doesn't require you to split your atts.

Not that I'm saying mystic regen is a bad skill, it's great on builds where you're not using an energy elite. However, with the insane amounts of energy you'll be burning off with en elite energy skill, aura really shines, both as a healing skill and a cover enchant.

bungusmaximus · Mar 09, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I think that for all mystic regen is good for, the cover enchant for a dual attunement is probably no the right place for it. Consider a 10 second period. Mystic regen will heal 18 health per second, or 180 health in 10 seconds.

A typical cycle for your build will go-

Lightning hammer 2 +.75 sec = 2.75 total time
Lightning Orb 2 + .75 = 5.5 total time
Blinding Flash .75+.75 = 7 total time
Enervating Charge 1 + .75 = 8.75 total time

In slightly less than 10 seconds (some extra time provided for moving around + retargeting) you'll have used 25 + 15+15+10= 65 energy. Aura of restoration at 10 ES heals for 3.17 times the amount of energy, or 206 health, and can quite easily go higher if you spam lightning hammer -> orb.

In addition, aura is less of a pain to recast, lasting 60ish seconds, and also doesn't require you to split your atts.

Not that I'm saying mystic regen is a bad skill, it's great on builds where you're not using an energy elite. However, with the insane amounts of energy you'll be burning off with en elite energy skill, aura really shines, both as a healing skill and a cover enchant.

This piece of math makes perfect sense when you're always casting. If I use it in AB that's not the case. I run often, especially when I take damage. When I take damage I need to be healed up, and when I take damage I run and don't cast.